Q. For Deane and Pete, please. Was there any second-guessing of yourselves immediately after the negative reaction
to the players of the design of the golf course?
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: Well, first of all, the golf course changed when we opened in October of 1980 when we opened for
play. We did not play in '81, when the first tournament was in '82. We made a lot of changes on the greens between the
opening of 1980 and the tournament of 1982. So once you started playing this golf course, and Pete was in the -- I don't
think Pete was real happy with the changes that I made, but I felt it was on the other side of fair; he mentioned the 17th
hole. Clearly the back of the 17th hole went away. And we put two extra Scambia (ph) letterboards on the back of 17 and
raised the back of that green so that all the balls didn't go off of 17.
A number of greens -- the greens here are fairly small in the first place, and Pete had a lot of areas where the greens
green drained off, were fairly deep, and almost all of those were brought up as much as a foot or 18 inches.
JERRY PATE: After the first year.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: No, we did it again.
PETE DYE: We've done it five times. (Laughter).
JERRY PATE: It's getting easier every year.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: We did it again after the time we played in '82. But between '80 and '81, I remember on the eighth
hole, there was a deep, deep hole right over the bunker on the right side and we brought that up 18 inches. On the right
side of 1 -- well, almost every hole, and then when we played the tournament, it was substantially, I felt as a player, it
was substantially on the other side of fair from the green standpoint when I first played it, when we started playing it.
Then in '81 when we changed it and then the tournament was played in '82, you've got to remember it's a brand new golf
course and the greens very hard. You have bermudagrass out there; they are very hard, and it was still just on the other
side of fair. So after the '82 tournament, we went in and modified them again.
And then, probably two or three years later than that, we changed the grass on the greens. When we did that we
refloated everything and it became just a little bit -- it's gone through about five transitions to where it is today.
Q. Did you take this personally when guys are talking about, where is the windmills and elephants buried in the
greens? This is your vision and your concept, and this is the reaction you got.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: Between windmills and Donkey-Kong and the hood of a Volkswagen, I have since played -- we won't
mention any names here -- but I have since played a number of golf courses by those people who made those quotes, and I've
played a lot more severe greens of those courses than these were.
JERRY PATE: Pete taught us all that.
But you know the thing that made it tough, Deane, as a player, was that the pressure was put on from the board to not
spend a lot of money. So in fairness to that, Pete dug the sand out of the golf course, as I recall, and put the sand that
they excavated -- in those days, if you were not just throwing money, you would use local site sand to build the greens.
And for those people that didn't know much about Jacksonville, I said, yeah that this is really good sand for greens because
in the summertime you just drive your car down the beach on the sand it works as real good base-paving for roads; or you can
use it as putting greens, and it was sort of a joke because the greens were so hard because the fact is that we didn't
really have the money at that time -- we had the money but the pressure was put on Deane and Pete.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: I was not allowed --.
JERRY PATE: He was not allowed to spend the money.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: The TOUR did not put a nickel into this golf course.
JERRY PATE: Since then, the greens have been shelled out. And then Bobby and Fred Klauk they came in and built USGA
greens with certified sands that have been screened, and the scores are more acceptable. The scores went from 8-under at
one time to 20-under. So the golf course has become much more benign.
PETE DYE: When you won the tournament, what would you guess the Stimpmeter reading was?
JERRY PATE: Probably 9 or 8. If you had them 10 or 11, the ball would run off into one of those holes.
PETE DYE: I mean 8 in 1981 would be really a fast green in 1981.
JERRY PATE: And they were ryegrass overseeded bermuda, which is a whole lot different from pen and bent and tiffeagle,
which now you are looking like a carpet compared to a little less fair.
Q. I thought the event that put the whole tournament over the top was, of course, going in the water. Would you tell
the actual story? Somebody had to have scouted out that area so you knew where to dive; you can't be diving into a foot of
PETE DYE: He had no idea. He came as close to being killed as anybody ever had.
JERRY PATE: You heard me on that video because I asked Alice on Friday; I knew I was going to win if I would make my
pits. I was not missing a shot. One of these where I was in the zone and I felt every shot was just precision and I told
Alice -- they here were when they built the course, but don't tell Pete, but how deep is the water off 18. He said it was
probably waist deep or chest deep. I said, "Is there anything buried out there with any stumps?" Because she used to
travel with Pete -- and actually she's the one that does all of the designs -- (laughter) -- Pete just takes her out. He
said no, it was just a clean lake and they had just excavated with the scraper, the big pans and they said it's about waist
or chest deep.
I said fine, that's all I needed to know. And of course, I told her on Saturday, "I guarantee you I'm going to win," and
I was not confident as you can imagine (Laughter).
And you heard me coming up 18, I don't know if somebody was going to hole it or birdie last hole, but I had it that close
from the hole and didn't know I was going to birdie and have a two-shot lead. I said, "Pete Dye will go in."
I had already planned that. And then I saw Judy up there and Judy is sweating bullets and Deane is nervous -- they
really were under a lot of pressure. It was unfortunate because here is a great idea, the greatest idea the TOUR has had
probably, and we as players were all unfairly criticizing this great moment in the PGA TOUR's history. As I said, you know
I was 28 years old and, you know, maybe Jack Nicklaus was 28 years old or 38 years old or some of the older players, or Ben
Crenshaw was 29 or 30. There was a lot of known players that were taking knots and I'm not saying Jack or Ben, Ben -- but
as age goes and it was probably not fair. It really wasn't when you look at it today because what they have done has been
Q. Deane, in the meantime, next time you have propaganda to send out I think you ought to let Jerry handle it for
you. He does a hell of a job for you. But Pete, Tiger Woods was in here this morning, and he said the first time he saw
this course was. I think, '94 when he played it at the U.S. Amateur, and he said he couldn't see the second fairway from,
like, the first fairway. And since that time so many things have been cleaned up that the course is just as hard, but it's
made it more of a fun course, but just as hard. And I wonder your thoughts there, sir, if it hurt you to see some of these
things moved out?
PETE DYE: No. Deane's concept, you know, the gallery -- and that's just helped the gallery. Now the TOUR has the
money; they can do it themselves. When I was out here, the only thing I had was goats, and the goats were a little slow
getting things cleaned up.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: We had goats out here cleaning up the rough.
PETE DYE: You all don't realize what a tough job I really had out here.
Q. For Jerry Pate, I wonder, since you're in the design business, I am told you could not build this golf course
today because of environmental reasons, but if you could, what would it cost to build a courts like this?
JERRY PATE: To build this course today, if you could just start over with the lines and lumber going around that
ditch -- when we played across the ditch, I would come over and Vernon Kelly would drive me on the mound in the truck and
show me what was going on because I had a keen interest in design.
But it would probably cost today -- it wouldn't be that much more expensive. But with all of the things that they have
added to it, probably 10, $15 million. Probably would be closer to 15, wouldn't you think?
PETE DYE: Sure.
JERRY PATE: By the time you figure the irrigation and areas they have cleaned up and grass and extra bridges for
But that's not a lot of money when you figure the golf courses -- Bighorn is $40 million or Steve Wynn's course in
California is $40 million, the Quarry is $20 million, the Tradition is a preserve and $20 million in Palm Springs. I'm just
building a golf course $13 or $14 million in the desert; so there are big numbers thrown in.
Again, I'm not trying to sound like I'm trying to oversell what they did, but it's incredible to look back 20 years what
at vision they had. And Pete, obviously, had the most creative ideas in golf design. When I saw Casa de Campo in 1974, and
I had grown up in a little town in Alabama, I went my God, and even Pensacola Country Club was built -- I saw this golf
course in the Caribbean and I said this is the most unbelievable creation. And I had already played St. Andrews and Troon
in Scotland and seen all of the diabolical holes there. And I thought this guy has got the greatest talent of anyone I've
ever seen in golf design and he did.
Really, I grew up -- and my mom was an artist and designer, and I said I want to do that. I want to do like Pete Dye. I
want to grow up and learn from Pete Dye because he's got great art and vision and skills.
You asked me about design, my philosophy really is to take Pete's idea and tone them down with some of Nicklaus's dollars
and agronomics. If you can get the middle of that, you've got a pretty strong golf course.
Q. Pete, I know you had done a lot of wonderful golf courses before this one was finished, but did being thrown in
the water after this golf course opened, did that like add to your notoriety? Did that change your career? Did people look
at you differently because of this golf course versus how they had looked at you before?
PETE DYE: It didn't change my staff.
COMMISSIONER BEMAN: Hasn't changed his clothes.
PETE DYE: Matter of fact, best pair of pants Pete Davidson gave to me after I was thrown in the lake, and I still wear
them at the home and I still wear them every once in awhile on Sunday. Still have them. They are a little suity for me;
they have pleated fronts.
JERRY PATE: You know, suity.
BOB COMBS: Really, very special chance to share their memories. These guys collectively, with this philosophy put
this tournament on the map with such an important moment in history here.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time out of your schedules to come. We appreciate it.
End of FastScripts....