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May 31, 2005

Jack Nicklaus


JOEL SCHUCHMANN: Do you want to just get us started?

JACK NICKLAUS: What do y'all want to talk about? The golf course is here, and that part has been here for a while. You guys have been here for a while.

The golf course itself I think is pretty darn good, probably comments we get is it's probably the best it's ever been, and I think it's probably right.

We just have a couple days without rain, which is hard to fine in Columbus, Ohio. The golf course is actually quite firm, which is obviously the way we like to see it played.

We obviously have a good field. What do you want to talk about? This is your deal, not mine.

Q. Talk about your game and how you are hitting it.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I don't have a game (laughter). You know that.

Q. But you're playing?

JACK NICKLAUS: Yeah, right now I'm playing. We'll find out come Thursday morning whether we're playing or not. I certainly would hope so. I wake up every morning and never know what I'm going to feel like, so we'll see. But I'm doing all right. I've been playing a little bit the last couple of weeks, so shouldn't be too bad.

Q. Could you kind of put into perspective what happened with that story in London as to

JACK NICKLAUS: Same thing I've been saying to you guys for the last

Q. But it became something else over there.

JACK NICKLAUS: I have no idea what it became. I didn't read it. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any articles since I've been back on it. Are you talking about the retiring thing? Well, I've been retiring for years (laughter), you know that. I've said it all year. When I started this year I had the intention if I could play The Masters, I'd try to play The Masters, but I definitely said that the British Open is basically going to be the end of my tournament golf, and that's all basically I said. I thought that St. Andrews is a place Augusta and St. Andrews are my two favorite places in the game of golf, and I thought it was appropriate to end it at one of those two, and St. Andrews being what the R & A did in changing their date frankly, they weren't going there until 2006, and they just announced it a year earlier, which I thought was a pretty nice compliment. I thought that would be a pretty good place to stop. I haven't played any golf anyway. I'm going to reserve the right to obviously be here. I think as a host here I may play, I may not play, but I'll reserve that right and try to be able to play here. But I have no intention of playing anywhere else other than Father Son events or skins games or something like that. I mean, I'm going to Kansas City next week but not to play in the golf tournament, I'm going out there to play with Steve, and they have an old Pebble Beach format. We played at Pebble Beach together, and I said, do you want to play, and I said, yeah, sure, I'd love to go play. That's why I'm playing. I could care less about the golf tournament itself, but that part of it I enjoy.

I shouldn't say I could care less, that's obviously not true. I've never entered something and played that I couldn't care less. That's not my objective for going there. It's not to play in the golf tournament.

Q. You meant more major golf championships or your competitive tournament golf, not hosting?

JACK NICKLAUS: Yeah, I'll always reserve the right here, but outside of that, I have no intention of playing any more tournament golf.

Q. Do you like playing here?

JACK NICKLAUS: I like playing anywhere if I can play well. But I just don't play well enough anymore.

Q. I guess what I mean is in the last three or four years, have you always been looking forward to playing on Thursday morning?

JACK NICKLAUS: I always enjoy playing, but the older I guess, the more I look at not necessarily looking forward to it. I'm always looking forward to waiting for it to get over with (laughter). I just don't know what I'm going to do. I never enter golf tournaments that way. I've always entered golf tournaments to go play golf. I just don't play golf anymore. I don't play at home.

Before I played here this week, I've played one round since The Masters. That's not exactly getting yourself in shape. Actually that's not true, I played Friday before I came up here, so I played two rounds. But I played the day before I came up here.

Q. So you're not much of a recreational player?

JACK NICKLAUS: Zero. The kids don't play that much anymore. Jackie doesn't play much, Gary doesn't play at all, Michael doesn't play anymore, and Steve plays occasionally, but Steve is always off playing in a golf tournament somewhere. He's the only amateur I've got, he's the only one that plays every week (laughter).

None of the grandkids really play seriously. A couple of them play and they're trying to play, but they're not really serious about it at this point. So it's just not I don't get a big kick out of it, so I don't play. I enjoy doing my other things. I've gotten I've always been obviously involved in my golf course work and designing work. I've really enjoyed that more since I've really stopped playing than the other because I really have a lot of fun. I spend more time at it, and I think we've got some great places we're doing golf courses, and we're doing some really nice facilities. I'm enjoying that all over the world.

When I'm at home, I'm spending more time doing something else other than playing golf.

Q. Since you're not what you're saying is you're not a competitive golfer anymore, is it harder for you to tee it up in more of I guess what you would call more of a ceremonial role?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I just have a hard time teeing it up as a ceremonial golfer, you know that. For me to tee it up this week, I've still got to tee it up as a golfer. I've played every day for the last four, five, six days, and trying to get a golf game in shape, Jim flick was with me yesterday working, we're trying to work through a golf game. I like to tee it up and Thursday and do the best I can.

But realistically, the best I can would be probably make the cut or something, and that would be about it. That's not really competitive. That's hard for me to do. I wish I could answer your question because I can't answer it myself. I can't answer in my own mind what I want to do.

Q. With the list of winners that this tournament has had through the years, can you say how you tried to design this course to identify the best player and how technology has affected that?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, you know, Muirfield when we did it was a pretty long golf course, a pretty strong golf course at that time, and it's become a relatively short golf course as standards are today, even though it's not short. I don't know what we are, close to 7,300 yards. You know, I think that all we've tried to do is stay a little bit with technology but not really where I could do there's 10, for instance, I lengthened 10. I don't like lengthening holes, but what happened with 10 was the break in the hill on 10, if a guy was really long, he hits it over the break and gets it down so he was playing a wedge where a guy who's not very long hits back there and is playing 4 iron. So I couldn't figure I could put any more bunkers or do anything else out there, so basically I moved the tee back. Really it's pretty difficult I imagine there will be some guys that will do it, carry it over everything. But most of the people are going to be playing a middle iron. I played it twice and hit 3 wood both times, so you know it's got some length to it.

The 14th hole isn't a long hole, the 3rd hole is not a long hole. The 2nd hole plays as a fast hole. Those are the way I like to see things played. We don't have any room to lengthen the par 5s I could lengthen 11, but I don't think it needs it. It's a pretty darn good hole as it is. We lengthened that five or six years ago, and that actually plays very well.

5, there's no place to go, 7, there's no place to go.

15, I could put a few yards on 15, and I might do that next year only for because I want to get a driver or at least a wood in the guy's hands. 15 a good to hit a 2 iron, stand there and knock a 5 iron on the green. It's either that or change it to a par 4.

Those are the things that technology has changed on the golf course. Frankly we've done it more with narrowing the golf course than lengthening it. If we lengthened it" would say another 30 or 40 yards is all we're going to get.

Two years ago I narrowed the fairways and bought them into an average of about 28 yards in the landing area. We've got the generous areas short of that, but once you get into that narrow neck, then you've got to go ahead and drive it. The 1st hole next year I'll probably lengthen. The only reason I'll lengthen the 1st hole is you've got guys that take the bunkers out of there and hit over it. I want to make sure what the relationship stays the same with what the golf ball is.

The trouble at Augusta, everything that they lengthen puts everybody short in the face of a hill, which made it deadly long, but a long hitter still hits it over the top of the hill. I'm trying not to do that. I'm trying to get to place the golf ball where you want to place it and everybody in the field is able to get it to those areas.

Q. Is that how you think the best player is identified, by placing it?

JACK NICKLAUS: In my opinion. I mean, the best player is not power. Power is always an advantage in this game, always has been an advantage. It's much more an advantage today than it was 20 years ago. But, you know, the game has changed. It's a different game today, and it is a power game today. Do I like it, no. Do I accept it because that's what it is, yes, of course I do. But you try to still bring shot making into the game as much as you can.

You know, you try not to turn around and say you're not trying to take the top players in the game and say, "Gee, they can't drive the ball in play." They're not forced to drive the ball in play. Not one of the top 5 money winners last year was in the top 20 in driving in accuracy. Does that mean they can't drive it in play? No, that doesn't mean they can't drive it in play because they've all won U.S. Opens and British Opens and stuff like that, so they obviously can. But because of what the game has become, it's more advantageous for them to just whack it past everything and play a wedge even out of the rough than it is to hit the ball in play.

So my desire here is try to force the guy to play into an area that I want to design as a golf course rather than take the strategy out of play. That's sort of what we're trying to do.

I know they're all quite capable of doing that. Does that answer your question?

Q. You said earlier that you don't really exactly know what you're doing playing wise

JACK NICKLAUS: I know what I'm doing (laughter).

Q. I take it that means you haven't really given any thought to how to bow out gracefully or anything like that?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I'm trying to (laughter). It's very difficult. I think that well, I still have a semblance of a golf game. I mean, I went to Augusta, I wasn't very happy with what I did at Augusta. I shot the same round finished up with as when I started with in 1959. I shot 76. At least I didn't get any worse, you know (laughter). Hopefully I got better in the middle, I don't know.

The game has passed me back, and that's fine, and it's passed me by a long time ago. I've been part of the game, I enjoy being part of the game, but I don't enjoy being part of the game when I can't compete. Now, if I was going out and shooting 85 every time I played, that would be a very easy decision. But, I mean, when I played Friday at home down at the Bear's Club I shot 70 playing the Bear's Club, and that's a pretty darn good round of golf because that course plays difficult for me and the greens were probably running about 14, and it played very difficult. I said, okay, I'm playing pretty decent. Then I came up here on Sunday and I guess I shot made a triple bogey at 14 and shot 74, pretty decent round of golf on this golf course. I had one brain "F". I said, well, I can still play a little bit.

Now, if I went out there and in preparation I was shooting 80 something, I would say I'm not even going to bother to play. While I have some semblance of a game, I'm going to say, "okay, I'm going to play," but I'm going to say bye at the same time while I still have that. I don't want to be shooting 85 when I'm saying goodbye.

Q. Along those lines, do you look at other people in other sports that hang on too long and say I don't want to do that?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I've already hung on too long, we all do that. There's a lot of other guys that have done that, too, not only in golf but in other sports, too. I always feel like that is sort of the choice of the person. If you want to play golf and enjoy it and that's what you want to do and you've earned the right to do so, that's your choice. You know, I hope I think I'm a horse of a different color. That's just me. I can't go out and play for people, I've got to play for me. I'm the only person that I've got to please with my golf game really, and I'm probably tougher on myself through the years than anybody else would be on me. Maybe that's why a won a few things, because I was tough on myself.

Q. Can you talk about what St. Andrews, why it means so much to you and what are your favorite memories from the Open wins there?

JACK NICKLAUS: You know, as I grew up, Bobby Jones was sort of my guy that I looked at. It was long before you guys, but he was a guy that played years ago (laughter). Jones won in 26. All I heard when I grew up was Bobby Jones, Bobby Jones, 13 major championships. Jones played at St. Andrews, tore up his card and walked off the golf course. The whole bit of sort of the love hate relationship that he had with St. Andrews, but he always said your career is never complete as a great golfer unless you can win at St. Andrews. He said something to that effect, whatever the words were.

Anyway, I always had that on my mind because I grew up with that thought of Jones. When I first went to St. Andrews, my father had played it when I was there in 59 for the Walker Cup matches and told me what a horrible place it was, and all his friends they three putted 14, 15 greens and all that kind of stuff because the course wasn't in tournament shape. It was just not very good.

But that's the way St. Andrews is. It's a public facility, they don't have it they have it a lot better now than they used to. At least they have an irrigation system. They didn't used to have an irrigation system, and you found it as it was.

Well, when I went there in '64, and the first time I went around the golf course, I said, man, this place is great. I loved it because I was not expecting anything and I got so much more. And it was so different than anything I had ever played and had stood the test of time with golfers from years and years and years ago, never really has changed. They added a couple yards to it this year, but it's never really changed. Golfers for 100 years or more than 100 years have played it. I just thought that was kind of neat.

So I finished 2nd in '64, then went back in '70 and won, thought I had thrown it away coming down the stretch, and I had thrown it away, Doug just threw it away further than I did (laughter), and the I came back and won there and then won again in '78, and the reception every time I've ever played in Scotland people have always accepted me as I went around. It's been fun, a great experience for me every time I've gone there. I thought that was my place to want to finish up playing golf. I've been very fortunate the R & A gave me that opportunity.

Q. Going back to your earlier comment about you golf for yourself and no one is really going to tell you what to do

JACK NICKLAUS: I didn't say that.

Q. Well, you don't play for the people

JACK NICKLAUS: I said I play for myself. I don't have to play people want you to play, but I can't play for them. The only person I can play for is myself. And when I'm playing for myself, and to be as if I can please myself, then I know I'll please people that are watching. But I know that I can't please anybody if I don't please myself. If I'm shooting 85, I can't possibly be pleasing anybody else. Somebody has come in, and whatever it cost them to buy a ticket, to watch Jack Nicklaus play golf, I'd like to have them see Jack Nicklaus.

Q. I understand that. So if you make the cut at St. Andrews and are playing well, you'll be pleasing people, will that make your decision to walk away tougher?

JACK NICKLAUS: It'll make it easier. It would be something that would be very nice. They would walk across the Swilcan Bridge on Sunday to say goodbye rather than Friday.

Q. With the Raleigh paper we're doing a preview to the Open at Pinehurst. One of the stories is speculation about you, Hogan, tying other Woods and Bobby Jones in your prime playing No. 2. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to play against those guys in their prime, or if you haven't could you wonder now what it would be like?

JACK NICKLAUS: They all played very well in their prime. Tiger is obviously in his prime and is playing very well. I think a guy who's a champion in one time could be a champion in another. I think Jones would have been a champion today and I think Tiger would have been a champion then. How do you compare them? The games are so different, it's just pretty hard to compare them.

Q. I know what the Masters it was kind of important to you not to have a big fanfare sort of deal and you quit on your own terms there as you wanted to do without a big deal about it. Are you expecting anything at St. Andrews or would it be a better week for you if it wasn't that kind of a thing and you could just play your way out?

JACK NICKLAUS: St. Andrews won't change either way. That's the way they are there. St. Andrews, I receive a nice reception at St. Andrews, whether it was 1964 or 2005. As I finish up, it'll probably be a little bit more than obviously it was in 1964, but that's okay. They've always accepted me as a golfer, and that's sort of what that's what I want to be accepted as. Hopefully that's what I was.

Q. What separates St. Andrews from the other links on the rotation, just the history?

JACK NICKLAUS: It's just so different, too. None of them are anything like St. Andrews. I mean, you've been there. The other golf courses obviously are seaside golf courses, they're golf courses that are placement golf courses. There are golf courses that technology doesn't play nearly the part that it plays over here. We could probably do that to our golf courses here except the members would probably never play them again (laughter). But they can do that over there.

St. Andrews, they don't do anything to that. They've added a couple yards to a couple holes, but they added yards to the 2nd hole which shouldn't affect it, 3rd hole which won't affect it, 4th hole which will affect it a little bit. 14 is the only hole they really made a change. They put the tee back at 14 where I don't know where in the world you're going to drive the ball. I have no idea. You've got the wall on the right and the Beardies on the left and there's no place to hit it but there. And you can't hit it short of them because there's no land.

Q. What do you make of 18 there as a closing hole? A lot of people think as closing holes needing to be meaty and tough and brutal.

JACK NICKLAUS: It is what it is. It's different. I go back to '64, and I drove it on there all four rounds, on the green, three times with a 3 wood. You're sitting there, and you're saying "What's so great about this hole?" Well, what's great to me is I'm still remembering what I did at it 41 years ago, and I got a big thrill out of it then. I mean, I've played the hole as a driver and a 5 iron, too. You just never know.

Q. Just thinking about some of the icons from the past who left the game in varying degrees of circumstances, Hogan sort of walking off in mid tournament, Sarazen playing late and making that ace at Troon, sort of a ceremonial role, Sam Snead making cuts in his 50s and making tournaments. Do you remember impressions of those men when you were competing, if that struck a chord with you and any other situations that apply here?

JACK NICKLAUS: Not really. I haven't paid much attention to what anyone else has done. Frankly I don't remember when Hogan last played. He just all of a sudden disappeared. Where was the last time he played?

Q. Champions, 71 in Houston.

JACK NICKLAUS: What tournament?

Q. What's now the Houston Open, I think.

JACK NICKLAUS: See, I don't even remember. Obviously I know how Jones finished his career, at Marion. Sarazen, he just went over to play in a ceremonial thing at Troon. That's a pretty good way to finish. Sam Snead is a guy who is timeless. Sam could play he could almost still play what was Sam, 90, 89? He was still playing very well when he was 82 or 83 years old, and he was a timeless person. But everybody is different. Everybody has got to do different things. I can't worry about what somebody else did, I've just got to do what I do.

Q. You've been a fan through the years of Pinehurst No. 2 and played the Open there. Your thoughts on it as a venue for the Open.

JACK NICKLAUS: I think Pinehurst No. 2 has always been my favorite golf course from a design standpoint in the United States. The reason for that is that it's a totally tree lined golf course without a tree in play unless you play a bad shot. And there's no water in play. The 16th hole is the only one with water but you'd have to reason to ever find it.

How that golf course has been such a great golf course through the years by just playing a golf course on the ground, I just always marvel at how good a test it was and how well it played.

I didn't like the changes they made to it the last time because they used pin placements where there weren't pin placements and they played all those outside knobs. Ross did not design those as pin placements, but they used them, and I think they'll use them again, which took away from the golf course.

I think it's a very special golf course. That's my feeling. Probably without doing what they did last time with the pin placements and what they will probably do again this time, Pinehurst is not a difficult golf course and they'll probably shoot some pretty low scores, but so what? It is what it is. It's a golf course that is it was done probably in the '20s, I suppose, and it's what it was. That's one of the things that bugs me about redoing the game is we take all our old golf courses and how wonderful they are and then we make them something else. I mean, Pinehurst as Pinehurst is a terrific golf course.

Q. Two questions about the discussions that are going on now regarding schedule for the next TV contract. Number one, are you confident that The Memorial is going to stay where it is, and number two, what are your feelings about some of these radical changes that are being proposed such as finish in September, start the season in November, things like that?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, it's the first I've heard of that and don't know anything about it. And as far as I know, we're two weeks before the U.S. Open for the next I don't know how many years. Can somebody answer that question?

Q. Through 2010.

JACK NICKLAUS: Through 2010 we're two weeks before the Open. I assume that would be within the next contract.

Q. Scarlet's renovation, any early impressions on that?

JACK NICKLAUS: I haven't been down. I'm going down Monday.

Q. About the plans, what the thought is?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, theoretically they had a MacKenzie golf course. It wasn't a MacKenzie, MacKenzie never saw it. He was there twice on the ground prior to his death. But it was about five years after he died that they did the golf course, or five years after he was there, one or the other. He died before they started it. They cannot find any plans for anything that he did.

But they would like to have somewhat of a MacKenzie feel of a golf course, and that's what we're doing. There was never a MacKenzie bunker there, so we're recreating some MacKenzie style bunkers. The greens were MacKenzie style, they were internal contours basically rather than tied to the outsides. We're not changing the greens. We're building about two new greens on the golf course, which I think just two holes, 4 and 14, are very short par 5s and we're trying to restore those into holes that would be more of today's play without really changing the feel of the golf course a lot. That's a golf course we're not doing much to. Basically we took out tons of trees, getting rid of trees.

Q. How about here having Bob Sowards in the field, a guy who used to work here? Did you read his letter?


Q. Were there any intriguing parts in that that swayed you?

JACK NICKLAUS: I had nothing to do with it. I have nothing to do with exemptions here. Exemptions are all done by the Captain's Club, and John is on that committee. John and three or four other people on that committee, they made the decisions, and the Captain's Club does that and that's the way I want it and that's the way I want to keep it.

Q. Does that add to the field here?

JACK NICKLAUS: Obviously that's why he was here, because he was here, because he won basically everything around Ohio. He obviously felt like he could be a great contributor not only to the golf tournament but being of a local flavor, and the quality of his golf game certainly felt like it qualified him to be here. That was their decision. As I said, I have nothing to do with that.

Q. Are you comfortable with where the date is of the event?

JACK NICKLAUS: Uh huh. We've talked about any other date, I've never figured out one that would be any good. I suppose we could play in February, but I don't think the course would be good. There's no other majors at that time. I wouldn't know any other time. Right now I know they're talking about maybe moving THE PLAYERS Championship, and if they moved that to the first part of May, I don't think that would make a whole lot of difference.

I sort of feel like there's been Masters in April PLAYERS has been in March, we've been in April or end of May and then U.S. Open and British Open, they're all spread out. If I tried to move to any other spot, I wouldn't see it where it makes any sense.

Q. The second thing was when we were talking about all those former players, the way they went out, if you could write your own script on the way you'd like to go out at St. Andrews, what would it be? Realistic script.

JACK NICKLAUS: Realistic script would be to obviously win at St. Andrews (laughter).

Q. I said realistic.

JACK NICKLAUS: That is my idea. It's not an original idea (laughter). Obviously the real script of going out would have been to say goodbye in 86 at Augusta, probably what I should have done. If I had any common sense, I would have said goodbye there.

No, St. Andrews, for me to make the cut, for me to play reasonably well I mean, the golf course is not too long for me to play. If I can play golf, I can play St. Andrews. Realistically, I could do fairly well at St. Andrews. So that's what I'd like to do, do as well as I can do.

Q. But you're not going as a ceremonial golfer, and you're still not in a mode of ceremonial, you're going as a competitor, right?

JACK NICKLAUS: I've always gone as a competitor. How competitive can I be? I haven't been competitive for ten years. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and play competitive golf.

Q. But in your mind you go as a competitor?

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, let's put it this way. In my mind I'm going to play my last golf tournament, last major, last event I'm going to play, that's what I'm going as, and I'm going there in the hope of being able to compete, okay?

Q. You said before when you said the game has passed you by, that's not the first time you've said it, but I'm curious if you realized it was passing you by as it was passing you by.

JACK NICKLAUS: Oh, I think I realized it was passing me by about 20 years ago, yeah.

Q. As you were playing?

JACK NICKLAUS: Yeah, 15 years ago, I suppose. Yeah, 15 years ago. Maybe not quite. Sometime in my early 50s I felt like the game was passing me by or I was dropping back would be probably the right way to put it. It didn't pass me by, I fell back myself. I would say a good dozen years ago I realized that and I've sort of backed off a lot since then.

Q. And in terms of your recreational play, which I'm kind of hung up on just for a moment, do you still enjoy playing recreationally, or is it more a point of not having time or not are you the type

JACK NICKLAUS: I've never enjoyed playing recreationally. I never have. Never done it in my life. Jackie, have you seen me play a recreational round?

JACKIE NICKLAUS: Even when we're playing around it's competitive.

JACK NICKLAUS: I've never talked my way around the golf course and said, "Oh, that was a nice day, what did we shoot?" We go around 18, he says, "I've got you by 2 and you've got me by 1." We're grinding. That's what we do. That's fun. That's the fun of it. That's my recreation.

Q. I know you said you're playing an event in Kansas City mostly as a chance to play with your son, but you'll be paired with Tom Watson for the first two rounds there, and this is the 15th year of that tournament. There's more excitement about that tournament than there's ever been just because you're there.

JACK NICKLAUS: That's very nice.

Q. Does it bother you that a lot of people just want to see you?

JACK NICKLAUS: No, I think that's very nice. I'd like to have them see me, the real Jack Nicklaus. I will put as much effort through as I can to do that. That's what I've always done all my life. I just know that there's a certain point in time, and I'm sure that time is there, that I can't do that, to give them what I think they really paid to see.

Q. I don't think I meant recreational, I meant non tournament. I don't mean recreational like what we do.

JACK NICKLAUS: Heavens, now that's really (laughter).

Q. Non tournament golf, do you enjoy it?

JACK NICKLAUS: No, I like tournament golf. That's what I do. And my golf to play golf is preparation to play. I love to go out and practice, and I love to go out and play to prepare to do something. When I am not preparing to do anything, what am I doing out there? I mean, I fly fish a lot better than I prepare to go to a golf tournament. I enjoy and that fish doesn't know whether they've got a 25 year old or a 65 year old throwing a fly at them.

JOEL SCHUCHMANN: Mr. Nicklaus, thank you.

End of FastScripts.

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