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COSIDA CONFERENCE CALL


October 19, 2016


Christopher Sabato

Jamie Gilliam


CHRISTOPHER SABATO: (No Audio) A lot of industries and we're going to be talking mainly about photography, but a lot of the same concepts apply to videos and documents and things like that if you wanted to make it. So I'm going to talk about what I do in my workflow. I'll suggest some alternative options to things and Jamie will cover some of his as well.

The thing to know about this is there is no great solution. There are a lot of ways you can do things. There are a lot of different options. But when you get outside that, you're just working for yourself. If I'm all by myself and I don't need to share anything with anybody, there are a lot of awesome solutions. But as soon as I need to share some of those photos and share the methods which I access those photos, then things get a little complicated. That's why there are a lot of topics written online and you can find all kinds of things.

But there is really no solution, like, yes, this is the best solution, this is what everybody should be doing. That's not out there. At least not in any of our price ranges.

So, let me start off a little bit about how I manage the intake of our photos, and then I'll touch a little bit on how I store them and back them up, and then we'll get to Jamie's.

To start with, I use a tool called Photo Mechanic. I know a lot of people save their photos and tag them basically by renaming the photos with who is in the photo. I am a huge proponent of using the metadata that's available in photos and tagging not just who is in them but where it took place, who it was against, all kinds of information, all that stuff embedded in the photo. So, 15, 20 years from now someone opens up that photo, they know all about where that photo took place and more than if you just renamed it with who was in it.

So my work flow revolves heavily around metadata. So to start with, I use a tool called Photo Mechanic. It's about $150. I think there is a 15% educational discount.

For me, it's worth it solely on the fact that it has this feature called code replacements. So let me open up a directory. So this would be an example of a photo that I've shot personally, or one of our photographers has delivered us some files.

So if you look at this photo, this is an example of what one of our photographers would have sent us. He's put a description in and keywords and done a bunch of stuff on his own. But what I want to do is I want to blank out this keywords field. Well, these are actually my files, so normally a name wouldn't be in there. But if I got these from our photographer, it would all be just general tags that were applied to every single photo in the collection, so I'm not going to lose anything by deleting them.

So what I'm going to do is use what's called the stationery pad. And what this is is this lets me apply en mass to all the photos different metadata. And basically, all I want to do is select keywords, and I want it blank. That's all the keywords for all those photos. And I'll get into this a little bit more. Most of my general keywording, when I get into Lightroom, but if you didn't have Lightroom or didn't want to use Lightroom, you could do all that in here as well. Things like descriptions and captions and locations, and opponents and all that stuff.

So I'm going to select it all and apply the stationery pad. So now when I go in, I've got no keywords. So as I go through each photo, there are no keywords.

So now here's where we get to the really powerful part about Photo Mechanic. I go to edit and settings, set code replacements. Remove that. I'm going to add this code replacement field. This is women's soccer. Just click on that so you can see what it looks like. All this is -- what a code replacement is it is saying replace this specific text with this other specific text. And you can see the character is set to a backslash. So any time I hit backslash 00 backslash, it will automatically replace that with keywords. With sports that have numbers, this makes identifying and tagging the photos super simple. So we'll close that and you'll see what I'm talking about. So click okay. I'll move back into here. And if I -- so I can see, this is 15. So I type backslash 15, backslash, immediately you see it replaces with Carmen Chavez Sand. So I click the plus, and I go to the next one, and I can just really quick go through and tag who is in all of these photos and it takes no time at all.

Photo Mechanic is really powerful and it can do a lot of stuff. But this feature by itself to me is worth the $150. It saves so much time and it's quick, and it allows me to make sure that I have tagged photos so that not only myself, but anyone in our department, when I upload them to the website, they're all tagged and everyone knows who is in the photos.

Basically, as I'm going through that, I'm just doing the backslash the number, backslash, and then I hit the plus key to go to the next photo. So plus and minus goes through the photos. So I can really quick go through the photos and tag them all.

One thing I forgot to mention is that actually I'm looking at a pared down selection of photos right now. Normally when I first open this collection of photos, well, if it's from one of our photographers, it's already pared down. If it's something I've shot, I want to delete a whole bunch of crap. Because a football game, I may take 1500 photos and only end up with 150 or 200 that are actually worth using. Photo Mechanic makes it really quick to go through and select those photos.

So you can see these are all checked anyways. I click on it, it's using the T-key, it knows whether that photo is checked or not. So I can just really quickly go through and check or uncheck the ones that I want, the ones that I don't want. And then once I'm done with that, what I'll normally do is control T to select all the checks and control shift O to select all the ones that weren't checked, and then just hit the delete key, and that will delete all the ones I didn't want. So I've got my pared down. So worked a little backwards here.

That depends on where you're getting your photos from. If you're taking them yourself, you're going to have a bunch you probably want to delete. If you have a photographer supplying you photos, presumably they'd be doing that, and you wouldn't have to go through and delete the erroneous photos. So that is a super fast way to get photos identified and selected.

For me, that's where I stopped using Photo Mechanic. It's a tool that can do more. You can do all your tagging, your file renaming, you can do a bunch of stuff with Photo Mechanic. But to me the most important thing is the quick selecting and picking, which photos you want to keep, which ones you want to delete, and the code replacements and being able to quickly ID all the photos.

Now, with sports like cross country and swimming, that obviously doesn't work. So those sports I actually -- if they're coming from one of our photographers, I don't use Photo Mechanic at all. If they're events that I've shot, I will use Photo Mechanic to delete the crappy pictures, and then that's about it. And from there I'm going to take those photos into Lightroom.

If you are a one-man shop, if you're the one who is managing the photos and the only one using the photos, Lightroom is a fantastic solution, and I would highly recommend using it, it's super.

If you're more than a one-man shop, Lightroom is not easy to share. You can't share catalogs very easily. You can't do stuff over the network. There's a lot of limitations when you want to be sharing your information.

So the way I work, I use Lightroom. I'm the one in our department who is ingesting the photos, was tagging the photos, was organizing the photos, and then making the photos available for other people to use. And for me, if there's one person who is in that role, using Lightroom is a huge advantage. I mean, you can look right now that I've got 56,000 photos in my Lightroom database, and I can find any of them just by searching. Searching for a name or sport. I could also go in and find specific years in sports. The way I organize my photos is basically there's a year directory, inside the year directory, there is a sport directory and inside the sport directory there is an event directory. Sometimes a two-day event would usually be a day directory. So, look, and there is a game, a directory for each game.

And the thing to think about with what I'm doing, this is just an intermediate step. All the stuff I do in here is preparing the photos so that I can put them someplace else so they can be accessed by other people. And that's actually the first step in our backup. And we'll talk a little bit about that later. But just to kind of get the gist of it.

Because when you're talking about backup and redundancy, you want to use a 3-2-1 backup program, which means three copies, two medias, and one of them off site. So this is essentially a backup for me. For those of you who are photographers out there, I shoot Raw because we are a small Division III school, and we don't have a ton of resources. We don't have a ton of photography. So we want to take advantage of everything we get, and that allows me with Raw, you get a little more leeway with the quality of some of the photos.

So everything in Lightroom that I've shot is in Raw. And what we're doing then is moving from organizing, sorting, tagging, everything in Lightroom, then we're outputting those to JPEGs where other people can access that information.

So let's look a little bit in Lightroom. I want to import those photos that I just tagged. So I'll get this import dialog, and you can import from a card that you put in. Mine is a temporary folder on my desktop. So I'll just navigate there. This is where I would do my file renaming. And I'm not renaming my files based on who is in them. My file naming convention is date, space dash space, event code, space dash space, event, or opponent, and then a number. For example, we'll say -- and I've got a template set up for that. And this is going to be women's soccer. So it's going to be wsocs, space dash space, and they're playing Pacific, and you can see, there is an example right there of what those files will be renamed to, so 2016 October 19, soccer specific, and then the photo number that it is. While we don't have to rename the photos, that just gives it -- gives you one extra piece of data if you come across a photo later and you're using a photo in design document, and you're like, where did I store that photo? You can look at the name of the photo, and the name of the photo is going to tell you where it's actually stored. At least I'll know that it's in 2016. I'll know that it's in October. I'll know it's the 19th, and it's women's soccer, very specific.

So I would do that import here. There are a couple of different options, copy DNG. If you're a photographer, and you're shooting in Raw, that can be helpful. Usually I'm doing either copy or move. Because in this case, it's copy or moving, usually it's from a card. And I'm going to copy and move from the card to the drive where all this data is stored. In this case, I actually don't want it on that drive. So I'll click add, and you'll see it will add it to the current location.

So you can see right here, this is my Lightroom library, and this is my C-drive, this is that directory that I just imported. This is all the other stuff which is on my F drive, which is actually an external drive, a little small Western Digital Passport that I can take home with me and I can use it on the computers if I really need to.

Q. So if you're using Lightroom, one of the keys, and I don't want to dig too much into Lightroom because I could spend a couple hours just talking about Lightroom, but one thing to remember, if you're going to use Lightroom, once you import photos into Lightroom, do not move them on your computer.
So right now these photos right here in Lightroom, if I go to My Computer and I go to the Desktop and that folder and I start renaming things, I start moving things around, Lightroom's not going to know what I did. So if you're using Lightroom and you've put photos, once you've put photos into Lightroom, the only modifications you should ever do to those photos is from within Lightroom, and that will save you a ton of stress if you follow that simple rule.

Like I said, normally I would rename those in import because I didn't actually want to bring them into my normal collection location. I didn't. So I can do that later. So this would be -- like I said, normally I do it on import. If, for instance, I forgot to do it on import and I made a mistake and I wanted to rename later, it's super easy. I just go to Library, rename photos, and I come to my -- this is my custom preset, and you can see. You can basically set your preset to whatever you want, whatever your naming convention is. And I'll click okay. And it's going to rename images, and it's done. So now you can see all these images now are renamed. Super fast to rename photos in Lightroom.

So for me, at this point, I don't do a ton of editing on photos, but one of the things that I will do is at least the photos that I take is I'm going to adjust the crop on. So to make sure that my photos are all -- unless there is a stylistic reason why they're not, that they're all somewhat horizontal.

So to do that, what I'm going to do is open my crop tool, and typically what I will do is I will -- these are already in there and tagged. So let's go back out here. Let's remove my labels. So I'll come back into my crop and I'm going to set my filter to this middle one right here, which is basically unflagged photos. And so, once I've done that, I've cropped this to wherever I wanted. I've got it set. I'm going to hit the P button to make that a pick, and it's going to move it off because I've got this filtered to only show unflagged photos. And since I flagged that one, it doesn't fit the criteria anymore. So I can really quickly go through and crop photos however I want to. Just by cropping, selecting the P, and moving through.

Depending on what's going on in the office, I may spend more time or less time doing cropping and maybe some touchup. If we're strapped for time, I'm probably not going to do any editing. If it was a game that was shot in really bright sunshine, there's probably going to be some fixes I need to do to just make the photos a little bit better. That's another one of the nice things about Lightroom is you can do it once and apply it to all your photos.

So, for example, let's find this one. This one right here. Let's say that this is just a little too bright for me and I want to turn down the highlights a little bit. Maybe this game or this photo was actually taken at night. This is actually more what it looked like. So I can adjust that, I can copy that setting and then come back out here and select those all, develop settings, paced, and then literally it will copy. You'll see it as it goes along. It will copy all those. Every photo now is going to have those same minutes. So that's a quick way.

Obviously, those are not good edits, but you can see how they've been copied to all the photos. That's helpful if, for example, the white balance is off or if all the photos you've shot are just a little too bright or a little too dark. You need to make an edit to every single one of them in the same way. It's super easy and super fast. But we're digging too deep into Lightroom here.

So to talk more about managing the photos -- so, as I said before, for me, Lightroom is kind of the processing point. That's where I'm organizing everything. That's where I'm applying keywords. You can see here that all the keywords, all those names that I applied are all showing up in the keywords.

At this point, I'll select all my photos, and you can see when I select all of them there is a little asterisk next to names, which means they're in one of the photos you selected but not all of them. So those are all the people in the photos. But I'm also going to want to make sure this is tagged with women's soccer, that it's Willamette University, that it's in Salem, Oregon, that it's against Pacific University. So you're getting a bunch of these tags in so that, again, at some future point if we're looking at this photo, just by looking at the metadata, I know more about the game. I say more about the game, although you could.

I will also give it a title and caption. If you were a stringer or shooting for a magazine or newspaper, typically these titles and captions would be specific to the photo. So for this one, if I was a stringer, I might be changing my title against Pacific, blah, blah, blah. I don't have time to do that for all these photos. So for me the captions and titles are generic to the whole game. So you can see, for example, the title is Bearcats for specific boxers. The caption is women's soccer, Willamette University plays Pacific University in Salem, Oregon, on this date. I was the photo for Willamette Athletics. If we had one of our other photographers that we hire out, their name would be there. The copyright is Willamette Athletics. I'm the creator. If it was one of our other photographers, his name would be here.

So this is all information that in a future date if we want to look at this photo, we can figure out who took this photo, when they took it, where they took it, who is in the photo and that's all embedded into the data within the photo.

Using the metadata is probably a little more time-consuming up front, but in the long run, it will be super, super helpful.

So with that, I've said who is in the photo, what game it is and where it is. I'll use the map feature and it just adds some geotagging. Let's see, I've already done that with these photos. Just, again, if we look at this photo in the future, you can see exactly where it was taken. So then what I do, once I've done that, if I need to get these photos out so that other people can use them, and for what we're doing, I'm putting those photos onto a network-shared space that is accessible by other sports information staff, and anyone across campus can access those photos if they need to.

The other thing I'm doing is putting it out to SmugMug as well. And what Lightroom lets me do is use these publishing services. So, for example, I have this hard drive, publish service that I'm just basically creating the structure I want on that shared drive.

So, for example, 2016. We're doing women's soccer, we'll stay with women's soccer, and this is actually Pacific. So what I'm actually doing is using these Smart Folders. So I'm defining what goes in this folder. And basically I've defined it if it's flagged to pick, if it's labeled green, if its capture date was this, and it contained women's soccer.

I could probably just do capture date and flagged and green, and really capture date and flagged, if I wanted to. But I always add that extra keyword, just in case if there are two events on one day, that's helpful. So I get in the habit of doing that for everything.

Label color green. Basically I use pick flags. Like this is a good photo, I'm done with it. It's good to go. Green kind of means the same thing, except for I also use, if I make a copy of one of these photos or I do something different to it for some other reason, I may tag it red or purple or another color so that I can use that in something else. But it's not going to get picked up.

For example, I use purple for Instagram. And you can see, these are all photos that were in those individual galleries that I had cropped square and then tagged purple so that was a different photo. Let me see if I can find the one that says Pacific. You'll probably see in this somewhere is that purple photo. No? I don't know where it went. Well, that's because I'm looking in the Smart Folder. And that's only showing me green ones.

So let's go back down here to women's soccer. There we go. So now you can see, for example, here's where I took two photos. It's the same photo, but I just created a virtual copy of one and made it square and labeled it purple so I could use that for something else, and that's not affecting where I'm storing all my other photos.

So, I've got these collections. Once I have the criteria set up, the photo shop there, and you can see this little publish button right here, it's grayed out now because it's all published, but if you had new photos in there, you'd be able to click that and it would sync. Then, for example, you can see on our -- you go women's soccer and Pacific. And there are all those folders in the shared drive.

And I do that same thing with SmugMug, and for us, SmugMug, we use it for a couple of reasons. One is that it publishes directly to our website so these photos right here just show up automatically on SmugMug, and the other reason is that I can -- if someone from across campus, maybe someone in development says, hey, I want a picture of so-and-so, they can just search for that on SmugMug.

And I know that Libris is a sponsor. So I'll give them a little bit of plug here. Libris is similar to SmugMug. A little more robust, a little more expensive. We've been using SmugMug since before Libris existed, so that's kind of where we are right now. Actually, our Mar Com department just purchased Libris last year on my recommendation. So that's another option. If you can afford it, it's actually a fantastic tool.

THE MODERATOR: In the interest of time, we are going to have to move on. I have a couple of questions.

CHRISTOPHER SABATO: Sorry. Taking a ton of time. Sorry.

THE MODERATOR: You mentioned the amount of photos that you have in your Lightroom database. The question about how much space do you need. Where are you storing that? Is that on a network drive, an external drive? Where are you storing those?

CHRISTOPHER SABATO: So I am storing all that data is on a one terabyte hard drive. You can see right now I'm using up 152 gigabytes of that one terabyte drive. And the reason I do that, and actually I'll show you that drive. So this is a drive, so this is where it is. And I actually store my Lightroom catalogs on that drive as well. So I can take that drive up, take it into another computer, and open it up into my Lightroom catalog and have access to all my Lightroom photos and the searching and metadata and whatnot that's out there.

THE MODERATOR: We have another question about what your suggestions might be for taking old photos such as actual photos and slides and rendering them digital. Would you prefer to use a scanner or take a picture of them? What is your process for that?

CHRISTOPHER SABATO: I would prefer to send them to someone else to do that. That is an arduous task, and if you've got one or two photos, scan them. We have a scanner in the office we can use. We can also -- our archives department will help us with that if we need to. If you've got a big box of photos, there are all kinds of services that I would encourage you to put those in the mail and send them to somebody else to do.

THE MODERATOR: All right. Chris, thank you very much. Jamie, you're here to discuss long-term management and storage options which continue to change as new tools emerge. Jamie?

JAMIE GILLIAM: Hello, everybody. I'm here.

THE MODERATOR: Okay. Go ahead.

JAMIE GILLIAM: So piggybacking on what Chris said, we use Photo Mechanic as well. It's an incredible tool. I just started using it in the last year myself. But it has streamlined our workflow so much, and the ability to use the code replacements to be able to streamline naming. We had been in a situation ourselves where we were renaming each file individually, and many of you probably found out over the years that's not very effective from a search standpoint. The good thing about the metadata is, and we've found this, is you can search on a PC or Mac, and it will pick up on that metadata much easier than just renaming the file itself.

So I've run into instances myself where I've found I know I have a picture of this person, but when I search for it I don't find it, and it's because the search functions and the operating systems aren't as robust as finding through the metadata. So I've got to echo what Chris said on that side of the things.

I don't know if they raised the price, but when I bought it last year, the educational discount, it was only $60. Maybe that's still in place. I hope so.

But for us, at Lipscomb University, about four years ago we implemented a new strategy because we were getting so many great photos and video data and all that stuff, so we needed somewhere to store that. Back to the 3-2-1 approach that Chris mentioned. We do it that way, and I highly recommend it as well. Our first tier is on Dropbox. We use a Dropbox Pro account. It's $99 a year. We use that between our communications and our other staff. That gives us one terabyte of access. So obviously that's not going to be enough for most of the years. So what we do is on top of that we use a storage system. One of the best things about Dropbox is along with the $99 a year, they have a $30 annual fee where you can do a file revision for a year. So if you inadvertently forget and accidentally delete a folder, you can go back for a full year and restore that folder.

It's saved us a couple times where somebody accidentally moved something. They thought they kept it somewhere else and they didn't. But to have that fail safe, so for $140 a year, we keep everything on about five or six computers and it's shared among us. We use all the same log in.

Another great thing on Dropbox is they have a new function called request files where you can -- if you have a photographer shooting for you, you can send them a link through email. Or it will actually email and stay in your contacts, and they can have a link where it doesn't matter how much space they have. Because sometimes you run into that with photographers. If they don't have enough space in their Dropbox, they can't upload it. You have a student working for you doing that kind of thing. So you can send them this. The upload is directly into your Dropbox. You put it into whatever folder you want to, it goes straight in there. And you've automatically got them as soon as you upload them. And it sends you an email as soon as they upload. Your student, or whoever your photographer is, just upload X number of files. And we started using that this year, and it's been great. Obviously there are other solutions. Google Drive, many of you have. We have it here on campus, too, for educational purposes. But it is unlimited storage. We use that with our university communications and marketing. That's how they send us our headshot and things like that. To me the interface is still a little clunky, especially when you're trying to share files external. So we still stick with the Dropbox for most of our internal usage for our athletics department. But we do use it on occasion across campus and things like that. Or if we have to move really large video files or something that just eat up too much of our Dropbox space, we'll use Google Drive in that aspect.

Also, there is another great storage feature from Amazon. They have Amazon Drive. If you have Amazon Prime, which is $99 a year, you get unlimited photo storage with that.

They did have a $12.99- or $11.99-a-year plan for unlimited photo storage. But when I looked recently to try to find that, I did not see it. So I don't know if they killed that off or what. I personally used that myself with my personal photography. I hope they didn't kill that. If they did, I'll probably have to sign up for the Prime. But those are great cloud storage. If you're not using cloud storage, I highly recommend it.

One thing a lot of people do, they put it on external hard drives. Those things are notorious for failing. They really should be a third tier-type system you need to have your local files and then cloud storage somewhere. We also use a function here called a Drobo. It's a network storage solution. Basically it's a network-mounted rack that you can put four or five hard drives in. We have an older model. This is the latest model that you'll see the Drobo 5 in. You can have up to five terabyte drives in each. So you can have up to 20 terabytes right there, which is a lot of storage space. Personally here at Lipscomb, we have two 2TB drives in ours. We use two of these.

And I would recommend this, too, if you can make this work. We have two Drobos. One sits in our office here in communications, and another sits on the far side of campus. So that gives us redundancy to where if a fire happens, a theft happens, the beauty of the thing is it backs each other up each night. So when we store something on there, it automatically goes through a checking unit. It's all automated. We don't have to check on it. This is just peace of mind for us so we know we have everything long term.

Every year at the end of the year, we take our Dropbox folder, that is our photos to label like this, and we'll take those every summer and dump those on to the Drobo, and we can go back to our archives as needed. The Drobo is not expedient. It's tedious, but it takes a little longer because you're having to go over the network. But it's still a solid, solid plan for us. As cost goes, they're about $500 apiece right now plus whatever hard drives you put in there these days can run you between $75 to $100 for 2TB hard drives. So that's a good storage option there.

A lot of you are still using disks and CDs. There is a lot of speculation that the life span on those is not exactly what has been entailed in the past. A lot of them are supposed to last 50 to 100 years. If you're relying on that, I would highly suggest you go in a different direction and pull those images off the CDs because they are going to do great. As we've already seen at this point, new PCs and Macs are not coming with DVDs or CD drives, they're going away with the floppy. So we need to try to get those off of there, get them on digital storage, put them on the cloud and hard drives and put them on a storage solution like a Drobo. So that's what we've found to work.

We've had great success with ours, and we look for it to -- we're looking to add a couple of hard drives in there in the next two years so we can bump our storage up. We're still only about 3/4 of the way, so we have that redundancy and room to grow in there. One thing I will mention I learned a couple years ago at a conference was a conglomerate called E & I cooperative services. Many universities, most universities, actually, are a member of this co-op. It allows you to buy different services. One of their contracts they have is the B & H. And B & H has some fantastic deals on there from time to time. It's going to be cheaper than anything else you see when you just log in. But you have to log in through this portal and go through their contract. And that's how you get the special pricing like you see on this. It's $498 which is the regular list price is $549. Sometimes the discount is only $2, $3, sometimes it's significant like this. So I highly recommend you check with your procurement office. Most universities are involved in this. I did not know that. And when I found out it saved us a lot of time.

If you've got somebody you're already working with, go ahead and get this as your quote, and say, B & H has it for this, can they match it? A lot of times they can. That's what eve used before as well.

That's pretty much what I had from my end.

CHRISTOPHER SABATO: I'll kind of jump in there just to clarify the Drobo stuff. What the Drobo, what you'll often hear it referred to is what's called BeyondRaid, I'm sure a lot of you have heard raid before but maybe don't know what it is. Raid is when you take, for example, five drives and instead of writing that photo to one drive, you write a piece of it to each one of those drives. So if one of those drives fails, based on the information in the other ones, you can rebuild it.

And a typical Raid solution, those drives all have to be exactly the same size, and once you've set it up, it's kind of set. Drobo is nice in that they don't have to be the same size, and you can add drives more as you go.

For example, like Jamie said, they're looking at more drives. They can just plop in a couple more drives. Now they've got more storage, and they've got redundancy within the Drobo itself. And if one of those drives fails, they'll just be able to pull that failed drive out, pop a new drive in, let the Drobo rebuild itself, and they're back up and running.

THE MODERATOR: Okay, great. Jamie, Chris, thank you both very much. We continue to appreciate Capital One's sponsorship of our Continuing Education Series. The recording of today's webinar and the ASAP Sports FastScript will be available for on demand use exclusively for CoSIDA's online community, CoSIDA Connect later today. All continuing education and resource library materials continue to be available on CoSIDA Connect. Mobile users can download the CoSIDA Connect app on iTunes and Google Play, and more information on the app can be found on CoSIDA Connect and CoSIDA.com.

Make sure to check back in at CoSIDA.com or follow on Twitter at CoSIDA News for dates, times and topics for upcoming webinars. Thanks to everyone for participating. Have a great day.

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